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“But the thing nobody ever tells you about the shepherd analogy is that shepherds always eat their sheep in the end.” ― Daniella Mestyanek Young, Uncultured: A Memoir.
I’m not sure how to present this. Rebecca and Allison have been burning up TikTok.I discovered this two evenings ago and have spent most of my free time listening to them tell their stories in typical 2-minute videos. They left their “cult,” Cornerstone Church in Knoxville, about eight years ago after spending many years filled with harrowing stories surrounding their time. Note the education of the pastors. Most list the Pastors’ College as their training. That “college” lasted nine months and did not require anything but a high school degree. Mahaney only graduated from high school. Perhaps it has changed in the recent past?
Both married while in the cult (I shall use this term since it is how they talk about this church), and each had four children in short order. For those new to the Sovereign Grace story, all SGM/SGC churches were and are controlled centrally. CJ Mahaney is considered the de facto head of the enterprise.
When I started this blog, I spent much time documenting the stories of many survivors of this “family” of churches. I even held a get-together in Fairfax, Virginia, attended by folks who the ministry of SGM/SGC had deeply wounded. Sovereign Grace Ministries changed its name to Sovereign Grace Churches. I often wondered if that was due to the terrible publicity when they were sued by several people whose children had been sexually abused in the ministry. The lawsuit was dropped due to the statute of limitations. To this day, people claim they are told it was because SGM won!
To understand the past, please refer to this article in the Washingtonian: The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch. There are two stories that I will never forget.
Much of my time was spent documenting the oddities of Mahaney’s rules for SGM. Now, Rebecca and Allison tell their stories on TikTok. Here is a link to all of their stories which are 2 minutes long.
I am choosing just a few of them, although I think I have listened to all of them. Rebecca was in the cult for 12 years. Allison was in the cult for 22 years. Both have left and divorced their husbands, who were also entangled in this mess.
This is a personal favorite since they mention the word “observation.” This word raises the hair of any survivor of SGM. These women were approached by a member or pastor who would say, “I have an observation.” This was always something bad. One woman told me that it was observed that she didn’t button up all the buttons on her polo shirt since that could cause a man to stumble.
The women are making a point by wearing bikinis for these posts.
There are so many more that I would like to share with you, but this has gotten you started. Sovereign Grace Churches, beyond having a bad history when it comes to covering up sex abuse, is also very weird. These ladies called it a cult. And this cult, via CJ Mahaney, joined the SBC. So does this mean that some of the churches in the SBC are also a cult? Instead of going after sex abuse, they are more interested in throwing out churches with female pastors and playing kissy-kissy with the likes of Mahaney. What a mess.
Rebecca and Allison are two brave women for speaking out about the pain they endured. They will help many women who have survived cults.
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Yeah, make sure your children were not put in public schools. Send them to Sovereign Grace’s school where they were sexually abused. http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/970485/22689936/1368570306447/second+amended+sgm+lawsuit.pdf?token=4RZlBAk7BrIP3ZERo%2FD%2F08BtW8c%3D Start reading around paragraph 56.
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Hey all
Please forgive any spelling errors, etc. Unfortunately, we had a problem today, and I think it is on my end-Spectrum.
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dee, No worries. This isn’t English class and no one here uses a red pen.
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“Note the education of the pastors. Most list the Pastors’ College as their training. That ‘college’ lasted nine months and did not require anything but a high school degree. Mahaney only graduated from high school.” 2 notes about seminary, in general: 1. Two of our friends attended seminary after they completed their undergrads, both degreed in IT fields, BS. For that seminary, students are required to do a 4yr undergrad degree, THEN attend seminary. Today, one of these guys works for Microsoft and the other owns a software company and teaches at Harvard. We don’t know why they didn’t end up as pastors. 2. Last night a friend told of living at a seminary residence in college, while he was pursuing an engineering degree. (Overflow housing.) He said there was one diligent seminarian, serious about SERVING as a church pastor. ALL THE REST didnt want to get their hands dirty, didn’t like work in general, and were generally very lazy. This is anecdotal but highly descriptive.
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Ava Aaronson: 1. Two of our friends attended seminary after they completed their undergrads, both degreed in IT fields, BS. For that seminary, students are required to do a 4yr undergrad degree, THEN attend seminary. Today, one of these guys works for Microsoft and the other owns a software company and teaches at Harvard. We don’t know why they didn’t end up as pastors.
This is very common: https://ministeringtoministers.org/clergy-losses-are-massive/ Disclaimer, I’m not familiar with this group, I only include the link because they cite the original studies where the statistics come from.
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Their response to a man saying that SGM isn’t a cult is spot on. Even then, though, some men are definitely favored more than others. For men who don’t fit the stereotype (at least so my husband tells me), it can also feel cult-ish.
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Is it just me or does anyone else find that it’s the same vid up-top no matter which one you (generic you) click on?
And if so, what’s the fix?
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Nah, CJ can’t be a cult leader – he’s the Humble One. Didn’t he write the book on humility?
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Sarah (aka Wild Honey), Clergy losses… 1. Maybe they are actually not gifted by the Holy Spirit with pastoring. They discover. 2. Maybe they discover that the mythical role of the pastor as the Jack-of-All-Trades, and Ruler-of-All is highly inappropriate though culturally popular nowadays. 3. If they are educated with an undergrad, maybe they DO want to actually work in their métier. In any case, that 4-yr degree with skills training is always a good thing. These uneducated pastors who fail and set up shop again and again, obviously don’t have skills and are not career (work) oriented. Some denoms seem to thrive on uneducated, unskilled, ill prepared yes-men hierarchies. The hierarchy is an empire for the guy (et al) at the top. In the name of god.
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Anybody that thinks SGM was not a cult and that C.J. Mahaney was not a cult leader, is not in their right spiritual mind. Thanks Dr. Al for bringing the “Apostle” into SBC … it fits well with the overall mess you have caused the denomination with your NeoCal movement.
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dee: Please forgive any spelling errorsYou don’t have to spell well to paint the right picture of SGM & Mahaney. Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 09:43 AM said:
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He Is Now in the SBC.
You mean the People of Destiny and their HUMBLE Head Apostle? Like Seeks Like, and the SBC is the latest Great Atractor.
Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 09:44 AM said:
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Ava Aaronson: didn’t want to get their hands dirty, didn’t like work in general, and were generally very lazy
That describes several “pastors” in my area under the age of 40. It’s a good thing they are in the ministry – they couldn’t drive a nail straight or drive a forklift if they had to! While their flock are slaving away to support them, these men of the cloth are tweeting their lives away at the coffee shop with the dudebros.
Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 09:46 AM said:
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Ava Aaronson: Some denoms seem to thrive on uneducated, unskilled, ill prepared yes-men hierarchies.
Especially when you factor in “Holy Nincompoop Syndrome”, where the more stupid and ignorant you are, the more Spiritual and Godly you must be. Walking in the Spirit(TM) instead of in the Flesh(TM).
“I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED!”
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Gus: Nah, CJ can’t be a cult leader – he’s the Humble One.With Armorbearers in livery blowing long trumpets before Him to announce how HUMBLE He is! Old Timer on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:01 AM said:
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It’s people like CJM and his dudebros that ruin it for numerous pastors quietly and selflessly serving their people. Think of it as the Pareto Principle: 20% of the pastors cause terrible damage to the other 80% who love God.
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Gus: CJ can’t be a cult leader – he’s the Humble One.
CJ had a bad habit of going around telling the SGM gullibles how humble he was and that he was a grand poobah “Apostle.” “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” (Joseph Goebbels, Chief Propagandist for the Nazi Party)
senecagriggs on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:03 AM said:
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For thousands and thousands of posts/comments; SGMsurvivors.com
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My only concern is that you may be insulting cults. CJ Mahaney reached levels of authoritarianism that most cults wouldn’t dare. However, CJ had friends in high places, he got the blessings of so many in Big EVA. They should all be ashamed. Did any of Big EVA ever apologize? Ever repent in shame?
I don’t think so. Very telling.
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Headless Unicorn Guy: With Armorbearers in livery blowing long trumpets before Him to announce how HUMBLE He is!
I went to the first T4G where they gave out that book. Talk about a lack of discernment. Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan and Mr. 9Marks himself Mark Dever. Wow, this is who young men flock to hear. Is there any puzzle to why the church of Christ is so messed up in America?
Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:50 AM said:
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Ken A: CJ had friends in high places, he got the blessings of so many in Big EVA. They should all be ashamed. Did any of Big EVA ever apologize? Ever repent in shame?
Al Mohler sort of apologized (not repented) of his support of CJ, but only after the Houston Chronicle series of articles on SBC abusers were published. Remember, Mahaney’s buds are New Calvinists – “repent in shame” is not in their toolkit.
Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:53 AM said:
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Headless Unicorn Guy: HUMBLE Head Apostle?If you self-proclaim to be an Apostle, are you humble? Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:57 AM said:
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Ken A: Talk about a lack of discernment. Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan and Mr. 9Marks himself Mark Dever.As Paul would say “Beware of Alexander the coppersmith – he has done us much harm.” Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 10:59 AM said:
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Headless Unicorn Guy: “Holy Nincompoop Syndrome”reaching a pandemic level in the American church dee on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 11:12 AM said:
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senecagriggs:Sorry Seneca, it is no longer available. Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 11:35 AM said:
For thousands and thousands of posts/comments;SGMsurvivors.com
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Max: If you self-proclaim to be an Apostle, are you humble?
“If you come across a preacher who has titled himself “Prophet” or “Apostle”, RUN!”
— my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher)
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Max: If you self-proclaim to be an Apostle, are you humble?
“If you come across a preacher who has titled himself “Prophet” or “Apostle”, RUN!”
— my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher).
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dee: senecagriggs:And Mahaney is Chuckling with glee. Muff Potter on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 11:45 AM said:
For thousands and thousands of posts/comments;SGMsurvivors.com Sorry Seneca, it is no longer available.
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Ava Aaronson: Some denoms seem to thrive on uneducated, unskilled, ill prepared yes-men hierarchies. The hierarchy is an empire for the guy (et al) at the top. In the name of god.Hierarchies can also be filled with over-educated careerists. Max on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 11:53 AM said:
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Ava Aaronson: Some denoms seem to thrive on uneducated, unskilled, ill prepared yes-men hierarchies.
While other demons move in on educated skilled intellectuals and their inner rings of elite controllers – in church and out of church.
Muff Potter on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 12:05 PM said:
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Headless Unicorn Guy: And Mahaney is Chuckling with glee.
“And as the flames climbed high into the night
To light the sacrificial rite
I saw Satan laughing with delight
The day the music died”
—- Don McLean 1971 —-
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Muff Potter:Lowlandseer on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 02:01 PM said:
Is it just me or does anyone else find that it’s the same vid up-top no matter which one you (generic you) click on?
And if so, what’s the fix? Don’t click the large arrow in the center. Click the smaller one, bottom right.
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dee, I came across this link –
https://web.archive.org/web/20080319191529/http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/ Is it related?
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senecagriggs: For thousands and thousands of posts/comments; SGMsurvivors.com
Seneca, Kris (not her real name) announced on July 25, 2022 that SGMSurvivors was shutting down permanently. The link you listed is no longer active. However, you can still see the blog on The Wayback Machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20220811185723/https://www.sgmsurvivors.com/
Todd Wilhelm on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 02:20 PM said:
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Ken A: Did any of Big EVA ever apologize? Ever repent in shame?
I don’t think so. Very telling.
Al Mohler is the only on who has apologized, for which I thank him. https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/mohler-akin-apologize-for-backing-accused-leader/ The others probably should read CJ Maheny’s book on humility.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar) on Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 03:55 PM said:
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“ Thanks Dr. Al for bringing the “Apostle” into SBC … it fits well with the overall mess you have caused the denomination with your NeoCal movement. “
Max, I have wondered if Al and “big EVA” were so welcoming towards SC was primarily because SG definitely insisted on “keeping women in their place”. There was a lot of chatter going on in “big EVA” about wives/women when SG was admitted. Their are very few other reasons CJ would be accepted and many reasons why he would be rejected…… even before the scandal broke.
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I have trouble understanding how people (women, and especially single women) tolerate and stay in cults like this. The thought of one of these ladies, Rebecca I think, being on the inside for so long blows my mind.
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Eyewitness, Thanx!
It worked.
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dee, “… they closed it down.” Dee.
*
I know. It became so irrelevant they closed it down. Now it’s a thing again Dee?
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I have wondered if Al and “big EVA” were so welcoming towards SC was primarily because SG definitely insisted on “keeping women in their place”.
So “Stomping on All those Uppity Wimmenfolk” has replaced Christ as our Salvation?
Did Andrew Tate, War Machine, and all the Commanders of Gilead die on the Cross and Rise three days later? And has their Holy Testosterone replaced the Body and Blood? Because that’s the pattern that’s showing up.
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senecagriggs, I know why they shut it down; it had nothing to do with irrelevance. I was going to take time to explain it to you, but I decided it wasn’t worth it.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar), One word:
FEAR.
It’s how they keep their women in line.
Who wants to go against what their preachers teach when they claim that it’s what The Word of God teaches?
Fear is a great motivator, what is your (generic your) end result if you (generic you) go against what The Word of God teaches?
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Here’s one of the essential marks of a CULT. The cult leader ALWAYS has “side chicks” or “groupies.” Always.
*
CJ Mahaney was therefore the most hapless cult leader ever. Zero “side chicks.”
I mean what’s the purpose of being a cult leader if you don’t have your pick of the women right? Actually, none of the leaders apparently were grazing in pastures not their own. Not hint of that was ever suggested. [ Feel free to bring up Morales but he was never a leader ]
*
At everybody’s insistence, a civil case was brought against SGM – it failed – twice [ technicalities – it’s interesting, I think God often works thru technicalities. ] There was nothing to stop plantiffs from taking a third shot at court BUT, this time the lawyers wanted their money up-front. Ya know; “show us the money.” Well apparently nobody actually wanted to pay the lawyers up front. It’s one thing to write internet posts or comments; it’s another thing to dig into your piggy bank and spend your hard earned money on the case. Of course, for all I know there is nothing stopping ex SGMers from trying again; other than money.
*
Here’s what I think Mahaney and SGM were guilty of; Mahaney – pride. SGM, mishandling some of the charges of abuse. SGM leaders were never accused of abuse themselves but 20 years later in hind sight, they might have handled things differently.
+
Bottom line: despite the decade long internet hate directed at them, Mahaney still pastors, SGM is still a denomination and Dr. Mohler is better known/respected than ever.
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Both of the ladies said that they have 4 children………. I wonder how their children are doing.
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And within only a week another “pastor” that has been exposed here is in the news concerning an assault. This time it is the wife of the pastor, not the antiChrist pastor himself who did the assaulting: https://julieroys.com/wife-former-prominent-tn-pastor-charged-child-abuse-second-degree-strangulation/ Is the true violent nature of these folks suddenly being exposed? Will more soon follow?
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Max: Some denoms seem to thrive on uneducated, unskilled, ill prepared yes-men hierarchies. While other demons move in on educated skilled intellectuals and their inner rings of elite controllers – in church and out of church.
Yeah, yeah. It’s either promote the least amount of education, or brag about the most degrees. None of it has to do with God. Jesus and His disciples were a motley crew but no degrees or pedigrees are mentioned as they went about their work in the Kingdom, a Kingdom not of this world. Another trend with men at church microphones (hesitate to call them pastors – what is a pastor, after all? Pastoring is simply one of 18 gifts of the HS, one apiece to each in the Kingdom) is the prevalence of their personal sports anecdotes: macho, mountains and marathon men. Again, nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus et al walked a lot, crossed a few lakes in unmotorized boats, etc. So, they were obviously in shape, sans the braggadocio machismo bent. Not a topic of talk for the NT men.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “keeping women in their place”.
Another one of those contrived human constructs that sinks a culture low. Has nothing to do with God, nothing to do with Jesus, and nothing to do with God’s Holy Spirit.
Ken A on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 07:10 AM said:
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Todd, I took that more of a “Sorry I got caught”. He blamed it all on CJ not being forth right with him if I recall correctly. When the facts showed with any slight looking into the allegations that CJ wasn’t being honest about what was happening. The evidence was overwhelming in my opinion. But you had to be will to look into it.
CMT on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 07:50 AM said:
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I have trouble understanding how people (women, and especially single women) tolerate and stay in cults like this.
Well, listening between the lines it sounds like the organization had a strategy for this. In one series of videos the younger sister talks about how she was lauded within the cult for dropping out of college to join. Then started “courting,” married, and got pregnant within 6months. At age 20. She had 4 kids by age 27. The sisters also talk about how the cult taught people to make it their entire social circle. They say that for many years being around other members felt safe, like those were their people. Women stay because it feels like the only place they can go.
Max on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 08:05 AM said:
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Ava Aaronson: nothing to do with God, nothing to do with Jesus, and nothing to do with God’s Holy Spirit
False teaching/theology always contains a wrong view of God, man, sin and salvation. So much of the 21st century “church” has little to do with God’s plan of redemption. Personality cults are prospering at the expense of Jesus.
Max on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 08:09 AM said:
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Ken A: I took that more of a “Sorry I got caught”
Indeed. Only when the potato became too hot to handle, did it become “CJ who?” New Calvinists stick with their dudebros until their liabilities exceed their assets, then they distance themselves from the bad-boys to protect their own skin.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar) on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 09:49 AM said:
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Ava Aaronson, Max, Jesus said, “Follow me.”
Now, many sinful, mortal men are saying, “Follow me”, under the guise of following Jesus ……. usually for their own personal power, fame, glory, and fortune. Many of them have MDivs.
The most sickening part …… millions of people fall for those fake Jesuses.
Some of those fake Jesuses are even convinced that they are right.
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CMT: Well, listening between the lines it sounds like the organization had a strategy for this. In one series of videos the younger sister talks about how she was lauded within the cult for dropping out of college to join. Then started “courting,” married, and got pregnant within 6months. At age 20. She had 4 kids by age 27.
“Come out from among the HEATHEN”, IKDG Purity Culture, and Quiverfull. From my experience with on-campus CHRISTIANS, the first has an aroma of “Navigators”.
The sisters also talk about how the cult taught people to make it their entire social circle. They say that for many years being around other members felt safe, like those were their people. Women stay because it feels like the only place they can go.
Question, Massmind: Except for THEOLOGY THEOLOGY THEOLOGY(TM), how does this CULT CULT CULT(TM) differ from all those Born-Again, Bible-Believing, Evangelical One True Churches and Megas and Gigas that come under scrutiny on this and other church corruption blogs?
Headless Unicorn Guy on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 10:36 AM said:
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): “keeping women in their place”.
You mean Barefoot, Pregnant, and constantly Praising, Adoring, and Putting Our For their Biblical Manly-Man owner and his Sacred Testosterone?
Headless Unicorn Guy on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 10:38 AM said:
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Muff Potter: Who wants to go against what their preachers teach when they claim that it’s what The Word of God teaches?
Cue Hellfire, Damnation, The Great Tribulation/Global Thermonuclear War/being Left Behind, and God Spewing Thee our of His Mouth at the Great White Throne a la Jack Chick. “If you question what I say or do
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
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dee:
senecagriggs, I know why they shut it down; it had nothing to do with irrelevance. I was going to take time to explain it to you, but I decided it wasn’t worth it.
Because Seneca the Smug Can Do No Wrong.
He’s back here after being Wondering Eagle’s regular troll for the past few months.
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senecagriggs, Al Mohler didn’t get elected as SBC President. He also was forced to disavow Mahaney.
AS for SGC still being around…sp is OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony.
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“…… how does this CULT CULT CULT(TM) differ from all those Born-Again, Bible-Believing, Evangelical One True Churches and Megas and Gigas that come under scrutiny on this and other church corruption blogs? “ Headless Unicorn Guy, Not by much.
“Theology” (inerrant, infallible) is a great control tool…… like saw-bits, hobbles, lip twitches, and yokes are used on horses and mules. “Theology” is misused in excessive, abuses manners, too.
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Headless Unicorn Guy: Except for THEOLOGY THEOLOGY THEOLOGY(TM), how does this CULT CULT CULT(TM) differWell, a wise rabbi once said, “You will know them by their fruit.” John Berry on Fri Apr 21, 2023 at 12:01 PM said:
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The trouble with the idea of cults is that some groups are very obviously very heavy cults. But when you evaluate many other groups, including mainstream, respected bodies, actually they can score quite highly in cult terms.
The pagan author Isaac Bonewits devised a useful tool to help identify how culty a cult is – there isn’t a clear dividing line where a group becomes a cult, but the higher it scores the more cult-like it is. http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html
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senecagriggs, i think i just heard a duck fart.
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CMT: They say that for many years being around other members felt safe, like those were their people.
The need to belong is a huge but basic human factor. Kids join gangs. Adults join cults. The smitten partner up with monsters. Attraction, promotion, promises and love bombing pulls us in close … to what turns out to be danger. We want to have faith, to join, to hang on. The membership. The covenant. The partnership. The so-called family. Being part of the gang. Love God. Belong to Jesus. Worship Jesus. But love your neighbor as yourself on level ground. Beware of those who elevate themselves up above others on platforms and raise their voices louder than everyone else in the room, with a microphone. We’re watching the discussions about notable church leaders on Twitter regarding ignoring warnings of sex offenders on their watch. Who has the elevated platform and the microphone, loudest voice in the room? Do leaders listen? Do leaders acknowledge the concerns about a predator in church? Do the elevated loud voices love their neighbors as themselves? It’s concerning, gives one pause about these voices from platforms with their following of donors that pay for their living, their support.
Former CLC’er on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 01:09 AM said:
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Thankfully I’ve always been a bit of a rebel, so when I was in Covenant Life, I would say things others might not dare to say and sometimes ask questions. I stayed for almost 16 years, mostly because of friendships and a sense of security with the structure, but eventually found freedom through some therapy and finding another church. I remember the get together in Fairfax, Dee. In other news Jon Ward, who grew up as a pastor’s kid in CLC , just came out with a book called Testimony. He works as a political reporter and has covered the White House, so he has a great mix of credentials to speak to things. I remember his Dad well but never really knew the kids, although my memory was jarred that I babysat at their house once while the kids were asleep, during the time when singles were expected to babysit for free.
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Jesus said, “Follow me.”This. Bait and switch. Gus on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 03:45 AM said:
Now, many sinful, mortal men are saying, “Follow me”, under the guise of following Jesus ……. usually for their own personal power, fame, glory, and fortune. Many of them have MDivs.
The most sickening part …… millions of people fall for those fake Jesuses.
Some of those fake Jesuses are even convinced that they are right.
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senecagriggs: Dr. Mohler is better known/respected than ever.
Mohler? – Don’t make me laugh! He has given up any pretense of reasoned and impartial thinking and started as a regular opinion troll for nationalist and political causes on WNG. Actually, WND would work just as well for his shilling, ISTM.
Max on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 08:34 AM said:
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senecagriggs: despite the decade long internet hate directed at them, Mahaney still pastors, SGM is still a denomination and Dr. Mohler is better known/respected than ever
It didn’t turn out well for Israel when they chose a King over God. When they desired the things of Egypt, God sent leanness into their soul. God has a way of giving you what you want, until the experience causes you to seek Him again.
JDV on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 11:18 AM said:
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“But the thing nobody ever tells you about the shepherd analogy is that shepherds always eat their sheep in the end.” Snipped out of context, this would appear to carry the implication that use of this analogy is in and of itself problematic, whereas it’s the abuse of this analogy that’s a problem. The abuse of the analogy does not prohibit a good use, such as the majority of John 10, which includes verse 11: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep”. There are warnings aplenty about hirelings and grievous wolves, which as we know some might not like to emphasize.
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“THE BRIEFING” [ 27 million downloads as of Sept 2022 ] “Mohler’s goal for the podcast remains the same: To discuss news in a way that challenges Christians’ thinking and brings clarity to world events. “This is not a part of some grand strategy to take over the digital world,” he said. “This is a strategy to try to help Christians to think through the issues of the day and to develop patterns and the discipline of thinking that are rigorously Christian and relentlessly biblical. I hope we get better and better over time. I hope that it is more useful. I hope that we learn over time the experience — how to be more helpful, more faithful in this.” More information about The Briefing is available at albertmohler.com/thebriefing. 27 MILLION DOWNLOADS as of last Sept.
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“Both married while in the cult (I shall use this term since it is how they talk about this church)” If the shoe fits, shouldn’t they wear it? Taking “the local church“ to the extreme of partnering but never being able to relocate to find a job? And then when you do find a job, having to travel three hours each way to lead a group rather than having the freedom to associate locally where you actually are?
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Max: Indeed.Only when the potato became too hot to handle, did it become “CJ who?”New Calvinists stick with their dudebros until their liabilities exceed their assets, then they distance themselves from the bad-boys to protect their own skin.
From the linked article in which Mohler said he “erred”: “Mohler added, “I should have been very clear about insisting on an independent, credible third-party investigation…. I should have said nothing until I had heard from those who were victims and who were making the allegations. I should have sought at that time the advice and counsel of agencies and authorities who were even then on the front lines of dealing with these kinds of allegations.”” That was 2019. If only he, Dever, etc. had influence in denominational, parachurch and institutional/educational settings where they could’ve from that point forward shown a robust commitment in such cases to further distinguish this is a turning point of proactive engagement against such levels of abuse, perhaps even making it a “mark“ of a healthy church or something. I might’ve missed the headlines where that was occurring. Absent robust and visible efforts and commitments towards that end, some might be inclined to think we have a redux of Oopsie, mistakes were made, where else you gotta go?
elastigirl on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 12:18 PM said:
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar), “Jesus said, “Follow me.”
Now, many sinful, mortal men are saying, “Follow me”, under the guise of following Jesus”
++++++++++++ it’s so true. those with good intentions don’t even realize — the church leadership industry, practical (unwritten) doctrine of bible as deity, & the endless drip of men with pastor hats publishing their self-indulgent thought-stream nonsense –(peppered with too many ‘performative’, ’embodied’, ‘icon’, & other such bs bingo words) –and metaphors stretched like a paper cup turned inside out (leaving a tortured carcass of whatever idea it started with and all the minions w/eroded objectivity are nonetheless as dazzled by it as all the 3-eyed mass-produced toys in a toy grabber arcade game, wondrously intoning “the claw…” as it comes down to take the chosen one to a better place… [cue Toy Story*] …are embarrassingly influential enough to have supplanted Jesus of Nazareth.
.
.
aside from these philosophical & pesky problems, that it’s become a religion of living in a pepsi commercial is objectionable enough. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR3BLM_TAmg
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senecagriggs: Here’s what I think Mahaney and SGM were guilty of;Mahaney – pride. SGM, mishandlingsome of the charges of abuse.SGM leaders were never accused of abuse themselves but 20 years later in hind sight, they might have handled things differently.John Loftness was named in the lawsuit as I recall and accused of abuse. Gus on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 03:18 PM said:
+
Bottom line: despite the decade long internet hate directed at them, Mahaney still pastors, SGM is still a denomination and Dr. Mohler is better known/respected than ever.
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senecagriggs: help Christians to think through the issues of the day
Which is, of course, exactly what the “briefing” is NOT. It’s indoctrination pure and simple, telling people what to think, and strangely, strangely, it always comes down on the well-known culture war issues with the usual positions – not a lot of new or original aspects or thinking in sight. And his SBC/Neocal groupies lap it up – but they would do so anyway. Except for Tom Ascol, the don of the other neocal clan and his minions.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar) on Sat Apr 22, 2023 at 08:03 PM said:
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Gus, Yep. I agree with you, Gus.
I’ll refer back to one of my own comments with: Al Mohler says, “Follow me!” … with his MDiv conferred by the SBTS. No Bereans allowed.
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JDV, Al Mohler showed far, far more concern for the damage done to the reputation of the SBC than concern for the victims.
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senecagriggs: 27 MILLION DOWNLOADSMax on Sun Apr 23, 2023 at 07:58 AM said:
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Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Al Mohler showed far, far more concern for the damage done to the reputation of the SBC than concern for the victims.
IMO, Dr. Mohler has never exhibited “pastoral” behaviour on any front. “Love” is not a descriptor associated with New Calvinists.
Outta There! on Sun Apr 23, 2023 at 09:28 AM said:
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I was a pastor and elder at an SGM church, a TULIP card-carrying Calvinist, who now self-describes as an ex-evangelical agnostic. I left church leadership 15 years ago and last attended a SGM church 14 years ago. The disfellowshipping and shunning that I experienced pain me and my family to this day. I hope these young ladies are able to move on and thrive.
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Outta There!: pastor and elder at an SGM church, a TULIP card-carrying Calvinist, who now self-describes as an ex-evangelical agnostic … The disfellowshipping and shunning that I experienced pain me and my family to this day
A familiar story that I have heard from ex-New Calvinists, as well as countless testimonies in the blogosphere. If an expression of faith drives someone from the ministry into agnostic territory, it is not of God. New Calvinism is a cult … disfellowshipping, shunning and excommunication are archaic religious practices meant to torment believers, nothing Christlike about it.
Michael in UK on Sun Apr 23, 2023 at 05:57 PM said:
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senecagriggs, They could always use some degrees of their inference, and not be gawking at his screen (and getting his cookies). senecagriggs, Decade long yawn more likely; administrative bungle. Real life is always less useful than the SGs would like.
Outta There!: self-describes as an ex-evangelical agnostic
You are now allowed to believe in Jesus and Holy Spirit, and the meanings of Holy Scripture, as much as you like, on the quiet, without anyone trying to stop you.
Michael in UK on Sun Apr 23, 2023 at 06:08 PM said:
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senecagriggs: Zero “side chicks.”You were one of the side chicks!
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Max: never exhibited “pastoral” behaviour on any front
For some, pastoral behavior is the display of power and control, top of the hierarchy with the know-it-all vibe.
Michael in UK on Mon Apr 24, 2023 at 10:15 AM said:
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Please can everybody help me. I have edged just beyond the “still grouching” phase but want to progress onto ever safer ground. I’ve discovered I’m very ashamed of myself for having been “had” so many times by bad calibre religious management. Agnosticism means I can believe as much as I like without the management objecting. But every time I feel “satisfied” that I can return to some halcyon earlier belief of mine (officially outlawed now anyway) I realise I was probably being “had” to some extent even as a youngster. Please can you say more, in your comments, to me to get over that shame towards myself.
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Michael in UK, There’s no shame in heeding your mind and experiences. If you choose to be a Christian, then you can comfort yourself in knowing that God gave you a mind for a reason. In my view, God wants people to think, and to think critically to protect themselves and make the world a better place. If you choose agnosticism, then you owe allegiance to no pastor or church hierarchy. You can listen to your conscience, keeping all good principles you have learned, and discarding ideas that harmed you or others. Either way, I wish you peace. You have clearly suffered, and you deserve comfort.
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Michael in UK, Michael,
My experience is very limited. But I do know that you are not the one who should be ashamed. Those people that indoctrinated and misled you, and did the same to many more people, are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves. I think you know that, too.
You have recognized that you have been misled. You have walked away. So, you are already on “safer ground”, at least to some extent. (Hmmmmm…… I think that might just be reason enough for a congratulatory celebration!) I think “Friend” has some good advice. All I can tell you is to try to lighten up on yourself; be patient and give yourself time to breathe and heal. Like physical wounds, spiritual wounds need time to heal.
I truly do wish you well in your spiritual healing and journey. And please, stay with us on TWW.
Maybe tell us how you are progressing from time to time?
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Ava Aaronson: pastoral behavior is the display of power and control
That is not God-called/God-gifted pastor behaviour … those are the actions of preposters who call themselves pastors. The American church is full of such characters – many have been subjects of TWW posts and more to come, I’m sure.
Max on Mon Apr 24, 2023 at 08:29 PM said:
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Michael in UK, “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6) “The Lord is close to those whose hearts are breaking” (Psalm 34:18) “The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning” (Lamentations 3:22-23) “This is the day which the Lord has made; Let us rejoice and be glad in it” (Psalm 118:24)
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Max, Nancy2(aka Kevlar), Friend, I’m a Believing Cafeteria Trinitarian Henotheistic Agnostic because I like the best of all possible worlds. It was the browbeaters and the trolls that put their own shame onto me (diverting my own maturing). I was born to be light, so was everybody else. I’d love to hear more about this same aspect in your lives too. The goal of the self-referential as to their organisation, their propaganda, their hangups, their influence, is to be the focus of our tut tutting. They love to be seen as being out of line (except for a handful). If we make it be about us, it will be about those who have suffered alongside us. Here’s something I wrote earlier in the light of all the usual unknown contingencies: Living in the now means supplicating to God in the now. And enjoying the now because then won’t give me a now I haven’t had. Then will give me now if I have now while now is now!
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I’m not saying don’t call them out. I’m saying put them down into their place and our journey up into its place. Apologies that I can’t cope with long videos BTW.
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Michael in UK:
Please can everybody help me.I have edged just beyond the “still grouching” phase but want to progress onto ever safer ground.I’ve discovered I’m very ashamed of myself for having been “had” so many times by bad calibre religious management. Please can you say more, in your comments, to me to get over that shame towards myself.
What often appears emphasized in the Bible is the numerous occasions where those in leadership have been massively problematic, with the effects and impact of that being felt by others. The Pharisees were called out directly and repeatedly, with analogies to blind guides leading people into ditches. The gospel accounts and the epistles speak of people repeatedly acting as hirelings as well as grievous wolves leading people astray. The book of Revelation begins with the further examination of churches and where they were falling short. It’s noteworthy that though many in the modern church — including some in the so-called Christian industrial complex—- may tend to speak rapturously about the early church in Biblical times, that discussion may often leave out some proper contextualization with the timeline and what was actually happening in the church as far as challenges. It appears Paul may not have even been on the road to Damascus before someone was reportedly offering money to acquire authority for laying on hands after the manner granted to apostles. Not too long after, others were evidently coming in with errant doctrine, warranting warnings against those who would preach “another Jesus” and a “different gospel”. (cf. 2 Cor. 11:14). Much of what comprises the epistles dealt with having to present the truth as well as reassert the truth against erroneous teachings (including to those who already heard the truth). Those erroneous teachings evidently came with additional erroneously-conceived requirements as described in Acts 15, Galatians, etc. Even Peter post-Pentecost reportedly received some warning and correction from another as far as “walking in line with the truth of the gospel” (cf. Galatians 2:14-17). Going back to the issue of timelines and how quickly such things could affect the church, there’s this sobering warning from Paul to the elders of the church of Ephesus in Acts 20:28-31: “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has set you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with the own blood. I know that after my departure, grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and out from your own selves, men will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Therefore stay awake, remembering that three years night and day I never ceased admonishing each one with tears.” As many people could be “had“ when leaders didn’t stay awake and when smiling faces — with as Max puts it, a gift of gab — may have strolled in offering something new or enticing, one may realize this as having been a risk from long ago. It might be that realizing you’re far from alone from being misled may grant you some helpful perspective going forward. This is especially when hearing others initially misled share about progressing on to safer ground, with sound foundations based on the truths shared by Jesus rather than the traditions of men. Moreover, it seems a good time to continue asking God for guidance. It could be helpful to consider some of the verses about God’s loving and caring nature and willingness to help and guide us, some of which are in the comment section of the next post: https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/04/21/alana-l-exhibits-far-more-grace-than-john-macarthur-as-she-explains-why-she-can-no-longer-be-a-calvinist/#comment-475636
Max on Tue Apr 25, 2023 at 03:23 PM said:
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JDV: a gift of gab
With a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks … you, too, could be a successful mega-pastor-maniac running roughshod over the church while pocketing a fortune from gullible pewsitters.
Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu Apr 27, 2023 at 08:45 PM said:
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Max: With a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks … you, too, could be a successful mega-pastor-maniac running roughshod over the church while pocketing a fortune from gullible pewsitters.
“Look at the Maniacs —
They’re fighing the Brainiacs!
And look at the Brainiacs —
They’re hiring Manaics!”
— “Maniacs and Brainiacs” from the old Dr Demento Show, a song which never made it online
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